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  #26  
Old 03-11-2018, 06:49 AM
Travis Frink Travis Frink is offline
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It's quite common here to plumb (?) multiple tanks (100lb?) together on the same gas line going to the furnace for locations where a large tank cannot be installed. Usually 6-12 tanks per setup. It's pretty common for restaurant kitchens and bakeries too.

It would require a getting a few more tanks and plumbing them together. Not sure if it would solve the problem or if it's even legal there....
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  #27  
Old 03-11-2018, 08:14 AM
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Tank lash ups can be done and it is viewed as really risky in the fire service. The bottles would not be allowed indoors. Small tanks can boil and explode in a short period of time compared to the big ones but the explosion in Kingman Arizona is still legendary in the fire service.
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  #28  
Old 03-11-2018, 08:33 AM
Travis Frink Travis Frink is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
Tank lash ups can be done and it is viewed as really risky in the fire service.
The tanks are always outside.

What makes the tank lash ups so dangerous vs a large main tank? I'm curious as it appears to be so common here in this land of earthquakes and deadly fear of fires (traditional houses were all wood/cedar and real close together and the most effective way to fight fires in past was to quickly tear down the houses next to the fire and the volunteer fire brigade was made up of carpenters from the local construction companies). Not everything is logical here though- it is still Asia....
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Old 03-11-2018, 08:55 AM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
Tank lash ups can be done and it is viewed as really risky in the fire service. The bottles would not be allowed indoors. Small tanks can boil and explode in a short period of time compared to the big ones but the explosion in Kingman Arizona is still legendary in the fire service.
and yet every hot shop i have ever been in has several BBQ grill tanks inside.
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  #30  
Old 03-11-2018, 09:17 AM
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smaller tanks get hot a lot faster than large tanks and there is normally only one connection on the tank coming out. In a lash up, everything is interconnected and each connection is a potential spot for failure.

Back in the day, Firehouse and Fire Engineering magazines inevitably had the standard with the forklift trying to move the propane bottle while the bottle was full and inevitably dropped it. Hilarity ensues. frequently the cover shot.

I'm well aware of the five gallon bottle being inside. I have one. Watch that bottle. Many 100 lb bottles have no protective cowl around the valve. True of all Oxygen bottles and a valve knocked off an O2 bottle is quite entertaining.
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  #31  
Old 03-11-2018, 08:30 PM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is offline
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Ive learned a long time ago never to argue with a Fire-chief- you say ď Yes sir yes sir yes sir.
Ive also learned not to argue with Pete- Ouch stop Ouch !!!
But arent you scaring up some people here?
Ive never experienced frozen lines,
But I ran all my glory holes on propane
The only time I-had a problem was having a twenty foot hose to a burner with a pilot light that would condense liquid and then spit out a huge flame out of the pilot, cutting the hose down to 6 feet solved that.
I had 3 200 pound bottles hookup parallel with valves so each one could be changed individually
And the only way to keep them freezing was to have a large powerful fan washing them with warm air from the studio- they were just outside the studio- the inside copper line and hose to each glory hole was fine
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  #32  
Old 03-11-2018, 09:04 PM
Lawrence Duckworth Lawrence Duckworth is offline
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I have a 5 burner forge, and when I hookit to just one; one hundred pound tank itíll start frosting. I hooked it up to two one hundred pound tanks and itíll run just fine. Michael, cutting the hose length may have helped you with a volume problem....I donít know much about the freezing/frosting of propane tanks but once you see it.... step back... they over filled a 250 tank one time and it was reallly hot out and the relief valve popped....thatíll scre the shit out of you too!!
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  #33  
Old 03-12-2018, 07:39 AM
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My point is two fold. First freezing a line is a potential hazard, particularly for someone with relatively little experience so I'm being cautious coupled with Jack's statement that he judges the furnace performance by it beginning to drop in temperature or, icing. I view the methodology of that as curious.

When one looks at regulations in the fire service, code was written 100 % based on tragedy in real world circumstances. It has never been theoretical. Someone had to make that particular mistake and quite frequently firefighters died from it.
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  #34  
Old 03-12-2018, 09:02 AM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is offline
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Well to clarify- the bottles pose a threat because they will get colder and deliver less and less gas without a doubt as the gas level in them goes down- with a gloryhole this is not a problem because you are there and will notice it and do something about it,- like change a bottle.
What happens in a gloryhole finally is that the air gas mixture gets so lean that the flame goes out, but there is still gas coming
You'd sure want a foolproof alarm system on a furnace to make you aware if that is happening when you're not in the studio and Im not sure there is a foolproof enough way that would make me sleep good.
And Murphys law is especially fond of glass studios Ive noticed
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  #35  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:11 AM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
My point is two fold. First freezing a line is a potential hazard, particularly for someone with relatively little experience so I'm being cautious coupled with Jack's statement that he judges the furnace performance by it beginning to drop in temperature or, icing. I view the methodology of that as curious.

When one looks at regulations in the fire service, code was written 100 % based on tragedy in real world circumstances. It has never been theoretical. Someone had to make that particular mistake and quite frequently firefighters died from it.
Pete, I think you should explain why freezing propane bottles are dangerous. What can happen... ramifications, etc. People are going to read this and not know what you are talking about.
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  #36  
Old 03-12-2018, 01:43 PM
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If you have a system that is using smaller bottles, this is much more of an issue. Propane as a gas, burns. It is generated as a gas to a specific volume based of the available surface area of the tank. The smaller the tank, the less is generated. So, if you were to try to draw more fuel from that bottle than its capacity to generate gas, it will start pushing liquid propane at the valve and fixtures. It liquified at I think -44F, I'm nor sure of that number but it does basically start pushing a deep freeze at your appliance.

Two bottles lashed together produce twice the volume of gas, so it works better. A 1000 gallon tank has tons of surface area to produce gas. The 200 lb bottles Michael refer to are commonly called Pigs in the trade but they are twice the size bottle that Jack uses, so Michael is fine. Jack is dancing with the devil Based on how he describes what he does.

Years ago Dudley Giberson had a more than punishing New Hampshire winter night and we do get 30 plus below zero nights. The line from his propane tank froze in the night and the entire system went down with no safety shutoff. He went in in the morning that cold winter day to find the furnace off and the propane line hissing as the sun had come up, warmed the line and began to flow gas again. He had a cigar in his mouth at the time, unlit. Had it been lit we might never have seen the tales which Dudley likes to tell.

So, the safety used for that environment is called a BASO valve and in our world, you need a high pressure one which my buddy Dudley sells. He has nice needle valves too. It has a pilot on it and if the pilot goes out which would happen in a line freeze, the valve micro voltage fail and shuts off the gas flow. I currently use a BASO system on my furnace which is stupid simple. First in line is a standard solenoid so if the electric system fails, it's a master shut off but it will come back on again when power returns so it needs help. Downstream from the solenoid, I have a BASO valve and its thermocouple tucks right under the furnace burner. If the power is out for a prolonged time, it shuts the system down but if its a short power outage- under thirty minutes or so, the thermocouple under the burner picks up the radiant heat from the furnace and continues to send a signal to the valve, so in that event, I have probably about a half hour to an hour before it shuts down Above that is a needle valve regulating flow to the burner and then yet another solenoid, wired to the controller call signal. It's stupid easy when you think on it and it costs a ton less that a protectifier.

Finally, NEVER lay a propane bottle on its side. It flows liquid. Don't lay mercury valves on their sides either.They flow electricity

Michael's gloryhole argument about it being always attended will not impress an inspector. It just isn't true. People leave the building, their cars break down, they drink a lot. Lots of reasons to not have been there when a system goes awry. Inspectors know that but I do understand his point.
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  #37  
Old 03-12-2018, 07:25 PM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is offline
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There are still some apples and pears being compared here.
Bottles giving off gas work like a refridgiator- the vaporization of the liquid makes the liquid gas cold in the bottle, so as the temperature drops the pressure and amount of gas drops thats being given.
Propane freezes at - 187 C so thats not what is happening in the gas lines and cold does not push out liquid gas into the lines. The liquid simply does not vaporize- and without checking ,I think thats the number you are giving Pete
What I see in Scandinavian forums for camper vehicles is that if there is butane in the gas as bought in Mediterranean countries causes problems with regulators freezing and not working
properly
Or with bad/ polluted/gas the regulators also cause problems
But if you have real cold outside temperatures combined with the refrigeration effect on the tank/ bottles the gas is simply not going to flow, and the burner will go out. As the outside temperature rises and the refrigeration effect stops the gas will start flowing again, and if you walk in with a lit cigar, or the gas reaches a motor you're going to have boom
The thing you're saying with a pilot light valve stopper is of course great, maybe have two inline before the furnace as in airplane redundancy
Mechanics is great- electronics is so so in this case
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  #38  
Old 03-12-2018, 09:05 PM
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Franklin Sankar Franklin Sankar is offline
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Pete never means never but...... can you lay the tank on its side to transport it from the station to home? 25 lb cylinder only.
How can I use my car to transport the 100: lb cylinder
Franklin
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  #39  
Old 03-12-2018, 10:36 PM
Jack Abner Jack Abner is offline
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
If you have a system that is using smaller bottles, this is much more of an issue. Propane as a gas, burns. It is generated as a gas to a specific volume based of the available surface area of the tank. The smaller the tank, the less is generated. So, if you were to try to draw more fuel from that bottle than its capacity to generate gas, it will start pushing liquid propane at the valve and fixtures. It liquified at I think -44F, I'm nor sure of that number but it does basically start pushing a deep freeze at your appliance.

Two bottles lashed together produce twice the volume of gas, so it works better. A 1000 gallon tank has tons of surface area to produce gas. The 200 lb bottles Michael refer to are commonly called Pigs in the trade but they are twice the size bottle that Jack uses, so Michael is fine. Jack is dancing with the devil Based on how he describes what he does.

Years ago Dudley Giberson had a more than punishing New Hampshire winter night and we do get 30 plus below zero nights. The line from his propane tank froze in the night and the entire system went down with no safety shutoff. He went in in the morning that cold winter day to find the furnace off and the propane line hissing as the sun had come up, warmed the line and began to flow gas again. He had a cigar in his mouth at the time, unlit. Had it been lit we might never have seen the tales which Dudley likes to tell.

So, the safety used for that environment is called a BASO valve and in our world, you need a high pressure one which my buddy Dudley sells. He has nice needle valves too. It has a pilot on it and if the pilot goes out which would happen in a line freeze, the valve micro voltage fail and shuts off the gas flow. I currently use a BASO system on my furnace which is stupid simple. First in line is a standard solenoid so if the electric system fails, it's a master shut off but it will come back on again when power returns so it needs help. Downstream from the solenoid, I have a BASO valve and its thermocouple tucks right under the furnace burner. If the power is out for a prolonged time, it shuts the system down but if its a short power outage- under thirty minutes or so, the thermocouple under the burner picks up the radiant heat from the furnace and continues to send a signal to the valve, so in that event, I have probably about a half hour to an hour before it shuts down Above that is a needle valve regulating flow to the burner and then yet another solenoid, wired to the controller call signal. It's stupid easy when you think on it and it costs a ton less that a protectifier.

Finally, NEVER lay a propane bottle on its side. It flows liquid. Don't lay mercury valves on their sides either.They flow electricity

Michael's gloryhole argument about it being always attended will not impress an inspector. It just isn't true. People leave the building, their cars break down, they drink a lot. Lots of reasons to not have been there when a system goes awry. Inspectors know that but I do understand his point.
On the topic of safety... has anyone used a gas replacement power burner sold primarily for replacing oil burners in boilers? These are UL listed and have all the flame safety needed built into a compact inexpensive unit... Iím attempting to attach basic info on one similar to one Iíve purchased but have not installed... but plan to within a month...
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  #40  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:26 PM
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Rich Samuel Rich Samuel is online now
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Franklin, always upright. Back in the dark ages, I ran propane tanks for the shipping department of a company in Colorado. They used a lot of forklifts in their warehouses. When they replaced the old vans, the suppliers wouldn't refill the tanks until a strong structure was built into the rear of the new ones to hold the tanks upright. I'm not sure if it was the law in Colorado back then, but "upright & vertical" is the law in many states now. (Yes, it's redundant but it's the legal terminology so it doesn't have to make sense.)

It's a good rule that has less to do with science and more to do with the vagaries of the road, weather, and other drivers.

Think "Wages of Fear."
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  #41  
Old 03-13-2018, 05:54 AM
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Franklin Sankar Franklin Sankar is offline
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Ok its never from now on. I thought the rule was for when the tank was being used only.
Thanks Rich.
Franklin

Last edited by Franklin Sankar; 03-13-2018 at 05:57 AM.
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  #42  
Old 03-13-2018, 08:34 AM
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It's been some time but on a visit to Maui, I saw this guy with a motorcycle pulling a 100 lb bottle down the Hana Road which is one tortured way to get carsick. The bottle was in about a 45 degree position on wheels with the valve being where the rider would sit. Loved that one.
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  #43  
Old 03-13-2018, 08:25 PM
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When I lived in West Africa we had to have butane tanks for our cook stove. We had electricity and running water, but there's no natural gas service anywhere.

The first time I saw a guy riding a moped over our bumpy dirt road holding a butane tank on the seat behind him with one hand, and driving with the other my eyes bulged out. The best part was the cigarette dangling out of his mouth.
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