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  #51  
Old 04-23-2018, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth View Post
...also, I would pay attention to the wine stopper hardware used, donít use chrome
Thanks for the tip, Lawrence. May I ask what the issue with chrome is? Does this cause problems for your process, or does it affect the end user?
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  #52  
Old 04-23-2018, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
While not quite like this, I've been making full pots (80lbs) of silver opals recently to the point where the pieces are not cased at all but have overlays of other silver based glasses on the surface. They really mature in the gloryhole in mild reduction. What is fascinating about them is that from the same pot, once sandblasted and finished, the surface color varies anywhere from a green to a vibrant fluorescing blue. In other sections, particularly the inside lip, it may be an opal yellow with jupiter like rings in it.

I'm accustomed to seeing the blueish/white fume you refer to when treating silver ( or gold) on a reducing glass body. I did not pay sufficient attention to the source material. Is this something you are buying to apply?
You pick up a little bit of fine silver or gold on the end of a boro or quartz rod and then vaporize it in a torch flame while holding the piece in the flame. The vapor is then deposited onto the piece. Can be used to amazing effect. Jason Howard makes some incredible flame worked goblets this way.

http://rjasonhoward.com/pages/Sunbur...re%20set3.html

http://rjasonhoward.com/pages/Martini%20Glasses.html
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  #53  
Old 04-23-2018, 12:01 PM
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I can certainly envision metal poisoning doing that it one considers it to essentially be a plasma and one's skin as differentially permeable. I''d wear gloves at the least.
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  #54  
Old 04-23-2018, 04:20 PM
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The acidity of the wine makes quick work of the cheap chrome plating. Stainless steel is the only way to go.



As far as fuming with silver or gold. Neither are poisonous so metal poisoning isn't really a consideration. Like it was said with enough exposure silver can turn you blue in very rare instances. Even that is not considered poisoning but a unfortunate side effect. I do mean rare as in drinking colloidal silver in large doses daily.
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:47 PM
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The actual silver fume itself is bad for you. Needs to be done with adequate ventilation.
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Old 04-23-2018, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Jordan Kube View Post
The actual silver fume itself is bad for you. Needs to be done with adequate ventilation.
This was my gut feel initially but Ive been doing this and searching for information for 6 years now and have found nothing to back up any kind of toxicity to silver at all. I always work under my hood though. I have yet to turn Blue.
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  #57  
Old 04-23-2018, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth View Post
...ezpots.com they might be pricey. I think I paid 4.50 ea.
Btw, I see some pretty elaborate figurines encased. Is there a book you would recommend.
Thanks for the source. Ill check them out. Books? On fuming and opals? No. Im not aware of any. Im totally self taught in this area. Its certainly been a fun ride. Connect with me on facebook or instagram as I do post a lot of in process shots etc.
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  #58  
Old 04-24-2018, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky Campbell View Post
The acidity of the wine makes quick work of the cheap chrome plating. Stainless steel is the only way to go.
Thank you, Sky. I assumed this to be the case.

I'll stop hijacking now.
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  #59  
Old 04-24-2018, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Kube View Post
The actual silver fume itself is bad for you. Needs to be done with adequate ventilation.
Respiratory nuisance. Nontoxic. I would love more info Jordan. Could you please post a link from where you got that info.

If your running a torch with nothing in it you need adequate ventilation. This is a no brainer. The by products from burning fuel with oxygen can be deadly with little to no odor. Common sense tells us we need ventilation. all I'm saying is that silver even in a vapor state is nontoxic. Please show me if I'm wrong I'm easily educated.
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  #60  
Old 04-24-2018, 12:42 PM
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I've believed silver to be toxic since I worked for the WaterPik people in the 1970's. The company introduced a home tap water purifier called Instapure that attached to your faucet. Not long after putting it on the market, the EPA ordered them all recalled due to a trace amount of silver, which they called a toxin, found in the activated charcoal filters. The packaging also had to be changed to indicate they didn't truly purify water. The objection was to the word Instapure with "Insta" in black and "pure" in white, with a flat plane between them. That was forty years ago. Maybe the thinking has changed over time?
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  #61  
Old 04-24-2018, 12:53 PM
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I would be leery of declaring any metal non toxic. Once airborn it would have remarkable invasive potential. As many metals are indeed toxic in concentrated form, I'd just play to the side of being cautious.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:54 PM
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I used to have exposure limits for Washington somewhere. Permissible exposure limits were below those of lead and other "worse for you" metals.

I did find some OSHA stuff:
https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsam...CH_267300.html


I'm actually really surprised to hear the lampworkers here say they are not worried about it. I thought this was common knowledge in the lampworking community. I've certainly caught a whiff and wished I hadn't. Probably not too big a concern in larger spaces but the smaller the space the better the ventilation needs to be.
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:06 PM
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I just ask for anyone who is claiming it is a toxin to please post the source for this information. Please reread my post above. I understand everyone has an opinion and yes I would much rather error on the side of caution but if I did that all my life I wouldnít be blowing glass.
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  #64  
Old 04-24-2018, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Kube View Post
I used to have exposure limits for Washington somewhere. Permissible exposure limits were below those of lead and other "worse for you" metals.

I did find some OSHA stuff:
https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsam...CH_267300.html


I'm actually really surprised to hear the lampworkers here say they are not worried about it. I thought this was common knowledge in the lampworking community. I've certainly caught a whiff and wished I hadn't. Probably not too big a concern in larger spaces but the smaller the space the better the ventilation needs to be.
More like common myths. Silver is the last reason you should be concerned with proper ventilation. Fear based stuff like this runs rampant but has no credibility.

I just read that osha document no where is does it support the idea of silver being toxic. If you drink Enough in coloidal form it will turn you blue way before it would damage your kidneys or liver.
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  #65  
Old 04-24-2018, 05:33 PM
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I tend to look at STEL limits and that is a 20 year study. It is what exposed asbestos, once claimed as harmless and candidly is very similar to alumina silicate fiber but did not have a 20 year study to raise alarms.

When I look at Gold, silver and copper on the atomic table, I also look at Mercury in the column. I look at the atomic radius. I'm not trying to be reactionary, I'm counselling caution.
No more, no less.
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  #66  
Old 04-24-2018, 05:34 PM
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I do want to say for the record there are odorless gasses that are the by product of combustion that will kill you if you do not have proper ventilation. NOx and NO2 are the primary first and foremost reasons to ventilate your shop. After that it would be heavy metals that can be released when colored glass is worked in a molten state. Iím happy to walk away from this thread but I have done my research and what I learned is fear based misinformation is never a good thing.
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  #67  
Old 04-26-2018, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cazes View Post
Thanks for the source. Ill check them out. Books? On fuming and opals? No. Im not aware of any. Im totally self taught in this area. Its certainly been a fun ride. Connect with me on facebook or instagram as I do post a lot of in process shots etc.
Iíll have to sign up for Instagram Larry, Iíve suspended my Facebook account for now...going to teach Zuckerberg a lesson!
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Kube View Post
I used to have exposure limits for Washington somewhere. Permissible exposure limits were below those of lead and other "worse for you" metals.

I did find some OSHA stuff:
https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsam...CH_267300.html


I'm actually really surprised to hear the lampworkers here say they are not worried about it. I thought this was common knowledge in the lampworking community. I've certainly caught a whiff and wished I hadn't. Probably not too big a concern in larger spaces but the smaller the space the better the ventilation needs to be.
Why single out the lamp workers? Most of us are furnace workers as well. I dont even touch that distinction as it stinks of elitism. No one has said that its OK to work without adequate ventilation. I just wanted to quantify the risks we face. I regret asking the question as it seems to have sidelined the discussion on technique.
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  #69  
Old 04-26-2018, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth View Post
Iíll have to sign up for Instagram Larry, Iíve suspended my Facebook account for now...going to teach Zuckerberg a lesson!
Haha! Fair enough. Drop me a line with your account name when you have set it up. Are you at all within shouting distance of the SF bay area?
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Old 04-26-2018, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Cazes View Post
Why single out the lamp workers? Most of us are furnace workers as well. I dont even touch that distinction as it stinks of elitism. No one has said that its OK to work without adequate ventilation. I just wanted to quantify the risks we face. I regret asking the question as it seems to have sidelined the discussion on technique.
Touchy! Ok, people who also lampwork. I fall into this category as well. I found it appropriate to mention since we were talking about silver fuming and showing lampworked pieces. I've just posted my experiences. People are free to do what they like
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:50 PM
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Jordan, The only thing I'm saying is when you get to the concept of "Plasma", regardless of how you mess with it is to advance with caution. Your Olfactory /Brain is a great interactive tool. I'm not trying to bash on anyone or group. If I really looked, I'd find the number of people picking up lead arsenates out side of vents to be alarming.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:26 PM
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I'm not trying to bash anyone either. My apologies to everyone if it read like that. I would say it is probably the rule rather than the exception that the vaporized gas of just about any solid or liquid on the periodic table are toxic if inhaled.
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Old 04-27-2018, 07:31 AM
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well, probably using the bong is more interactive than making it when it comes to breathing. That part clearly needs more research but don't hold your breath waiting to find a study in Science Magazine.

Or, do hold your breath.
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Old 04-27-2018, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
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I'm not trying to bash anyone either. My apologies to everyone if it read like that. I would say it is probably the rule rather than the exception that the vaporized gas of just about any solid or liquid on the periodic table are toxic if inhaled.
Its not a vaporized gas it's a vaporized metal. It's not changing its molecular body. it's not much different then turning water into vapor it's still water. Silver and gold are not heavy metals and should not be thought of as one. It doesn't collect in our bodies and we easily remove it. Silver can be ingested and has been medically used for years. It needs heat lots of it to be in a vapor state if you inhaled the vapor from silver you would also be inhaling enough heat to cook your lungs.

I'm really surprised that anyone would fume any metals with just the thought this fan will suck it away so I don't have to worry about it. That includes stannous and tin.
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Old 04-27-2018, 12:45 PM
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Sky, Wood is not a metal and it doesn't burn. It's vapors do. Vaporization on the scale of small stuff is really small. Gasoline doesn't burn either,its vapors do. Someday when you're feeling brave on a cold cold morning, throw a lit match onto some gasoline and watch it go out. Vapor is as small as it's going to get.

My directions of concern with lampworkers compared to furnace people is not meant to be condescending at all. They get their intake breathing apparatus far closer to those fumes/vapors/ plasmas than a soft glass worker tends to and I warn frequently that soft glass workers with inadequate ventilation are putting themselves at risk as near as I can imagine from four feet out. .

If you have a material you can heat up sufficiently that it will interact with a material that is relatively stable like hot boro glass and change the molecular structure at least at the surface of the glass, you have something to respect. That's true of stannous as well and people ventilate the living snot out of it. It's true of Lead arsenates as glass powders which will give you substantial headaches in short term exposure. Fluorine is at the top of the big "C" list at the EPA .
You seem to want to insist that nothing bad can come of using the materials in a reasonably casual way. I'm encouraging you to change that great mindset.

At one point Mary Beth used a popular epoxy in her glasswork that was known for strength and clarity. I won't mention the product name here because the last time I did, I was threatened with legal action. She worked with it in large pools and laminated glass. She came down with extreme asthma and her doctor asked the Los Alamos Labs to look at the product. They came back with a report saying get the hell away from the stuff without a respirator and big exhaust vents. We sent that report to the manufacturer who did not respond well. But, the bottom Line? She has the lung damage now and forever. Cancers from Asbestos took 25 years to establish. Alumina silicate fibers have a similar history. Look at lead paint. You can look to the failures of myriad refractory manufacturers who all went bankrupt trying to defend against caseloads of class action suits, many from the workers who made the products.

I'll say this a second time. A STEL Limit is a 25 year study of toxicity for material found in the workplace. This particular process is barely out of the barn door and has no history. Therefore, no STEL study. I have excellent ventilation here but when I make specific glass bodies, I leave the area. These days, those melts are quite rare but we're still not dismissive of the potential. When we do glue, it's respirator and exhaust time. You'll not find me suggesting that anything less is a good idea. Craftweb has a wide range of experience. Right here, I'm going lowest common denominator.
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