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  #51  
Old 01-22-2019, 05:50 PM
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Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
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Thanks Bob, expanding the image was at the least fuzzy but it revealed a really high Barium as near as I could see in the kugler and a lot of zinc which are all OK as long as the boron doesn't get in there. Again, it's hard to read and just goes fuzzy. The price does not really surprise me. I think it's low in the long run.

I did ask my rather reliable Kiwi friend what he thought on the GLASMA and he had the same problem' that I had but had better info than I did. So, he said that the GLASMA material utterly lacked alumina which would substantially reduce the melt temps for the material but at the same time would raise hell with the durability of the batch. It's the same reason I abandoned my earlier batch I used for a long time. Now? I include minispar in my formulas which brings the Alumina to a good level. Nice clean spar which combined with erbium and the new sand from SP make for a really clean glass.

I'm still comfortable with my evaluations of the overall scene.

I've said before, no free lunch.
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  #52  
Old 01-22-2019, 05:58 PM
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How about availability in volume?
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  #53  
Old 01-22-2019, 06:05 PM
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If you can improve the image, it would make some of us really happy. Those of us that nit pick a lot.
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  #54  
Old 01-23-2019, 05:58 AM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is offline
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There are things that I dont quite understand in what you say Pete- you say Barium will throw stones if melted too hot-that can be interpreted several ways.
That the barium itself will make stones? That the barium is causing something else to throw stones?
Since I only have experience with Glasma (and a few hundred Kg of Philips) I do know the following:
You can melt Glasma in a clay pot, 5 times a week, a couple of hundred Kgs of batch every night, for 6 to 9 months pot life, at 2408- 1320C without having any stones. Or the furnace breaking down. Thats the way it was done then.
If you on the other hand put in an American EC pot in the same furnace and take the batch above 2264F 1240C, you will have 3/8” stones 3/4” uniformly spaced in all dimensions throughout the pot. Melt at 2246 1230C you will get perfect glass.
My deduction was- EC pots don’t like going above that temperature- which you also informed me when I started buying the pots from you. It was the pot dissolving making the stones.
Id heard that people were melting at lower temps but since I was melting much larger volumes over night, I had to push close as possible to the pot limit.
Since you are blaming the barium, my question is: can you go higher with a non-barium American batch and get no stones?
Further,-
In Sweden, Scandinavia and probably large stretches of europe, there is no chemistry knowledge of batch composition in the shops- there has never been a need to try to make youre own batch when very good batch is readily available, and there is no awareness that glasma batch is difficult to melt- on the contrary,- Glasma has for years been working on making it easy to melt,- lowering melt temperatures etc
There are many small studios who dont have a clue about anything,- melting glasma.
With risk of getting on second place on the turd list, I think that with your authority and influence and knowledge, its a shame that you are turning people away from a good solution to getting good glass. Although I can buy your arguments about being in control of the process, being independent, the satisfaction etc and the negative aspects of importing from abroad. Absolutely.
But it sounds like there i a large demand in the states for glass that works, and the producers cant supply and get their shit together.
Let me repeat what Ive written before,- glasma is a mixing plant. Glasma has any number of standard and custom batches. Anybody can turn to them and have a specific batch made for them,- then the Glass Research Institute would research and develop and test it before Glasma mixing it for you.
Or in your case you could have your latest batch mixed there- order 500 tons and ship it to the US.
The research center has all the gathered accumulated knowledge of 350 years of Swedish glass industry.
To have a kiwi saber down a Glasma batch as “unstable” is just totally absurd. Hell will freeze solid before the research center would release a glass that was unstable. Thats saying that all the glass Kosta Boda Orrefors and lots of other factories have made in the last 40 years is unstable, because you and him have found it to be so? I dont get it. What have you found?
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  #55  
Old 01-23-2019, 09:12 AM
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Jeez, you're never at risk of hitting my turd list michael. I consider you to be one of the rational adults in the show.

Now, that being said you have presented a boatload of circumstances that can go all over the place. I'll start with something Frank Wooley from his time as senior melt engineer at Corning at said that "there is no particular material that makes a glass more caustic than any other. The dissolution issues exist as viscosities fall. Fluorine, or lithium are not villains. They simply lower viscosity. As the glass becomes more watery, it can readily attack the refractories in the furnace."

If I'm melting a fluorine, it is normally done at 2100F or colder and brought up to 2200 MAX for a very brief time to jettison gas. Those melts are ready to use three hours after the process commenced , so it's fast. If I exceeded that set of temps with American refractories, a single melt would at the least produce severe cording and at worst, destroy the pot in a single melt.

So, allow me to then move to refractories. The stuff used for the most part in small american shops is a 90% tabular alumina mix with a clay binder. In reality, it gets used because it already existed at EC for melting stainless steel in ladles. a pot only ran for one day and was chucked. It happily also worked for glass under far greater times. All of the pots at EC were flat bottomed until I asked them to make the round bottom ones when Chuck Savoie and I were trying to make color rods. They were cheap and worked pretty well. That was the same period when you were getting those large pots in Denmark. They are coarse, fairly porous creatures and are very similar to what we make today at High Temp. The great advantage to them is thermal shock resistance which is really handy if cullet is getting banged into them. They don't perform well at high temperatures however and by high, I mean 2400 plus. For those type melts, a clay pot, fine grained is what you would use. They would do far better but are highly susceptible to thermal shock , so we're back to my adage of "No free lunch"

I have a lot of customers for pots and the old school guys order pots way less than the newer ones. They know how to treat a pot. I expect them to change out their pots about once a year and they continually get good glass. Many of the old school guys use SP87. GLASMA is imported by Bill Glasner in upstate New York but usage has never caught fire. I am unaware of any distribution chain for it beyond Bill.
Now my friend and I have been looking at the GLASMA and what came up was quite interesting. In conversation with a european glass chemist, it turned out that he had GLASMA 705 analyzed. Scott Benefield had supplied me with this miserable pie chart supplied by GLASMA . It gives no percentages at all but Peter did have them. The boron was at 2% and so was the barium. Potassium appears to be about 4-5%. If the pie chart is at all representative, it would suggest that the sodium content is also high, perhaps 15%. That makes for a ton of flux when you consider the barium presence as well, BUT there's one critical issue. The analysis showed no alumina at all.

That's really remarkable.

Lack of alumina would substantially lower the melt temp of the batch. The potassium content doesn't reveal whether it is a nitrate or a carbonate but I'm leaning to nitrate explaining how Sam can get away with his melt schedule. It is indeed sloppy. Barium does reduce viscosity. I recall Mark making a barium glass. which splashed if you threw a chunk of cullet into it. That will eat your pots.

The bigger question then becomes durability. I have to wonder how the 705 is going to perform if it goes into a fusing project, being melted a second, or more time. Durability has never caught fire as an issue for modern glassmakers except for Mark.
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  #56  
Old 01-23-2019, 09:44 AM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
J
The bigger question then becomes durability. I have to wonder how the 705 is going to perform if it goes into a fusing project, being melted a second, or more time. Durability has never caught fire as an issue for modern glassmakers except for Mark.
SP87 is horrible for fusing.
As you said.... .

There is no free lunch.
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  #57  
Old 01-23-2019, 10:39 AM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is offline
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The grinding/polishing time doubles for every remelt, even adding 20% to the batch if that tells you anything. Stig who does the cold work can reach new heights in obscenities depending on the cullet % in the melt.
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:46 AM
Bob Meyer Bob Meyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
If you can improve the image, it would make some of us really happy. Those of us that nit pick a lot.
Well, your site states the max file size of an attachment in any format is 97.7 kb, and the pdf I have is more than 3 times that. But the jpg version I was able to attach is larger, too - I'd guess your site compressed it, as it looks nice and crisp on my end. Any suggestions?
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  #59  
Old 01-23-2019, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig View Post
The grinding/polishing time doubles for every remelt, even adding 20% to the batch if that tells you anything. Stig who does the cold work can reach new heights in obscenities depending on the cullet % in the melt.
********
I love listening to people swear in Swedish.

I don't know what to make of that beyond it suggesting to me that it uses nitrates. Nitrates will certainly affect the melt but when done leave only the remains as potassium or sodium oxides. It strikes me that all of the modifiers and stabilizers are really likely crowding the silica to be below 70%. I have to believe that the modifiers are about 20%. With no alumina to check that, I would think durability would be an issue. The pie chart has this little wedge which it calls others. I don't know what others it might have . Fluorine? Antimony? Lithium? Zinc?

In enamels, it's entirely possible to have less than even 50% silica but you run about 11 percent alumina. This isn't an enamel.

Has anyone tried to slump the cullet as a fusing exercise? I would be most interested in those results.
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  #60  
Old 01-23-2019, 12:07 PM
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Well, your site states the max file size of an attachment in any format is 97.7 kb, and the pdf I have is more than 3 times that. But the jpg version I was able to attach is larger, too - I'd guess your site compressed it, as it looks nice and crisp on my end. Any suggestions?
******
I don't have those skills Bob. Send it to my email as an attachment if you will.

glassgu AT earthlink DOT net
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  #61  
Old 01-23-2019, 03:50 PM
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I am assuming the barium carb content at less than 15% is a typo. It might be 1.5%. Other than that, the analysis isn't an analysis at all. It's way too vague. It is worth noting that there's no alumina mentioned but then again, no silica either. Lithium ? less than 3%? I think this paperwork does more to confuse than to enlighten.

Dan, you've been sent to the corner for six months. I have limited patience as I've said.
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  #62  
Old 01-23-2019, 04:42 PM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is offline
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This last posting looks like what you call a data safety sheet or something like it in the US- it is vague to protect the intellectual property while providing hints at possible health hazards, right?
The first chart Bob posted- the fuzzy one, seems to spill the beans completely, in a way Ive never seen before. But its hard to read the text surrounding the chart so Im not sure.
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Old 01-23-2019, 06:21 PM
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"The bigger question then becomes durability. I have to wonder how the 705 is going to perform if it goes into a fusing project, being melted a second, or more time."
My wife, Kaeko has been fusing with Glasma 705 for many years with no problems. No evidence of hazing or devit. I was melting Spectrum 2.0 in my small furnace for a while and that showed a lot of problems from the fusing process. She quit using it for fusing altogether after a short time.
As far as durability, my dog's water bowl which was made 12 years ago, and has
water in it for that long, shows a just hint of iridescence.
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  #64  
Old 01-23-2019, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam Stang View Post
"The bigger question then becomes durability. I have to wonder how the 705 is going to perform if it goes into a fusing project, being melted a second, or more time."
My wife, Kaeko has been fusing with Glasma 705 for many years with no problems. No evidence of hazing or devit. I was melting Spectrum 2.0 in my small furnace for a while and that showed a lot of problems from the fusing process. She quit using it for fusing altogether after a short time.
As far as durability, my dog's water bowl which was made 12 years ago, and has
water in it for that long, shows a just hint of iridescence.
*****
Spectrum 2.0 is SP87 lifted as an entire formula. It's role as a devit glass is well known and accepted.
I'm trying to figure out why what you have would be working when it defies convention. It's always possible to do that, but how?
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Old 01-23-2019, 07:29 PM
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"I'm trying to figure out why what you have would be working when it defies convention. It's always possible to do that, but how?"
Not sure what you you are trying to say here Peter?
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:12 AM
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As Michael pointed out, the images are of a safety sheet, and are as usefull as the pie chart.
You mentioned someone had it analyzed.
What method was used to analyze the 705 ?
Using what, batch or glass? not everything shows up, so the assumption that the batch contains 0% alumina is questionable.
At Glafo the institute that developed it they know there stuff.
Here in Europe people love the 705 for kiln casting, even a secondary income for shops that have a lot of cullet.
We have tumblers blown of the 705 that survive the dishwasher, oldest item 15 years and running without any sign of decay, mind you the 30% lead crystal I developed for Leerdam, 25 years ago still holds up, and yes it does contain Alu.
Stuff made with the philips batch shows a film within a month.
Pearce in Vermont melts Glasma batch, there own formula, I really don't understand why the 705 is not used more in the US. It melts overnight as low as 1220C, 2230F, and as long as you keep it well below 1300C 2370F with a high alu pot you are fine.
Have a client that melts 24-26 metric ton of 705 over a year, in one crucible.
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Old 01-24-2019, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Durk Valkema View Post
As Michael pointed out, the images are of a safety sheet, and are as usefull as the pie chart.
You mentioned someone had it analyzed.
What method was used to analyze the 705 ?
Using what, batch or glass? not everything shows up, so the assumption that the batch contains 0% alumina is questionable.
At Glafo the institute that developed it they know there stuff.
Here in Europe people love the 705 for kiln casting, even a secondary income for shops that have a lot of cullet.
We have tumblers blown of the 705 that survive the dishwasher, oldest item 15 years and running without any sign of decay, mind you the 30% lead crystal I developed for Leerdam, 25 years ago still holds up, and yes it does contain Alu.
Stuff made with the philips batch shows a film within a month.
Pearce in Vermont melts Glasma batch, there own formula, I really don't understand why the 705 is not used more in the US. It melts overnight as low as 1220C, 2230F, and as long as you keep it well below 1300C 2370F with a high alu pot you are fine.
Have a client that melts 24-26 metric ton of 705 over a year, in one crucible.
****
The information I received was that it was analyzed by a reasonably respected european glass chemist. so, he had it analyzed. I don't know the specifics beyond that.
I think from pure economics, Spruce Pine has been here these thirty some years and was really cheap. The 705 had to be imported and was a good deal more expensive. There wasn't ever anything deep. Dale was never much for considering quality of the actual materials. There were few people trying to make very clean stuff. Many of them developed their own formulas. It's not complex.
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  #68  
Old 01-24-2019, 10:34 AM
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Michael now tells me he is actually using GLASMA 33 and I don't know what that has either. So,don't get confused comparing apples and oranges. My curiosity remains in place as to what structure the 705 contains. 1950F is really cold.
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:50 PM
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Find attached the Glasma 705 Spec sheet. See under Chemical Properties: Hydrolytic Resistance Glafo measures the glass (DIN ISO 719) for hydrolytic resistance at 2.2 ml. That places it as a Class 5 glass having very low water resistance. This would be consistent with it having a rather low viscosity log n 2 of 1345oC (2450oF)

More reading under Chemical Durability at www.glassproperties.com or https://glasstubes.eu/hydrolytic-class-of-glass/
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File Type: pdf Glasma 705 Spec sheet.pdf (17.8 KB, 30 views)
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Old 01-25-2019, 10:26 AM
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1950F is really cold.
Yes it is. I got this idea for cold charging from Hugh Jenkins on the Big Island. Initially, I thought it was a bad idea but I tried it and had success. I think Hugh probably ran his furnace a bit hotter but this works for me and has worked for a few years. I have perfect melts consistently.
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  #71  
Old 01-25-2019, 11:54 AM
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I read the solubility material that John listed for the 705. If I understand the material correctly , which I freely admit I find to be pretty dense, the testing shows how much hydrochloric acid it takes to neutralize decomposing alkaline materials in a solubility test. So, the more acid it takes, the more dissolution is going on. The 705 rated a 5 which appears to mean it takes a lot of acid to go neutral which from my point of view means it is questionable on that durability. He said that he thought SP87 would probably rate a 4. Nirvana would be a 1.

The dog dish thing set me off. I don't consider ten years to be that long of a time . It seems to me that iridescence is a clear sign of decomposition for whatever reason and glass is not a forever material. The only glass I've really messed with on that level was Dudley's original formula. In humidity, it sweated. When Mark taught his class last year, he intentionally made water glass and put it into a water bath. Each day, he had the students take it out and see how much less it weighed. It was substantial.

None of these low melt glasses really seem to be designed for durability but rather for ease of working or I suppose how they take coloring. Finding a perfect glass satisfying everyone would be pretty unlikely.
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Old 01-25-2019, 03:19 PM
Art Freas Art Freas is online now
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In software development we talk about "iltities" a lot. Things like simplicity, availability, flexibility.... There is also a body of work that captures things that negatively correlate, for example flexibility negatively correlates with affordability. The relation meaning that as you make software more flexible it costs more to write. It would be interesting to sometime capture the things in making glass that correlate and negatively correlate. So workability and durability negatively correlate, workability and low melting seem to correlate. Would be an interesting document.
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Old 01-25-2019, 03:44 PM
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well, start with price art. Lithium is not only expensive stuff, access to it is potentially critical. Making glass with it makes life kinda easy.

that said you need to see what people want. The SP formula has really served the community for over 30 years now, either as the original batch or as the knock off from spectrum. Oceanside still has thay Spectrum formula but can't turn it into glass.

Every one who has tried to make cheap cullet has ultimately failed. Even GLASMA quit. Until the retail price meets the production reality, expect troubles.

Cristalica is making cullet that is apparently deteriorating in quality and clearly availability is subsidized but building a better furnace may be beyond their directive. The Kugler is available, currently at $1.60 but will never meet demand. Doing a start up with a price below $1.75 lb is likely to fail. So, get ready for higher prices deciding whether cullet is available. Otherwise? Sp87 batch is less than .80lb, GLASMA is more. Mine is more but it asks the studio to do more work. That's what I see from my house.
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Old 01-25-2019, 08:05 PM
Art Freas Art Freas is online now
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Price is a great place to start but I think the rest of it is really interesting. Be assured that if I had the right place to make my own glass I would if nothing else make my own color (I would start with the base). I started out my education in chem engineering but life intervened and I couldn't do what I wanted to do with it at the time. But I still think it would be interesting to list out the glass qualities that do and don't correlate.
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Old 01-26-2019, 07:15 AM
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well there are red flags. You can't get a red from cadmium if the base glass contains lead. Fluorine attacks your pots and furnace.Excesses of modifiers cause decomposition and stones. Some colorants also act as refractories (chrome) . Some contaminate your pots.

Strip it all away and most glasses are fairly generic in composition that studios use. 70% silica, 18 % alkaline fluxes, 8-9% stabilizers, Alumina, antimony, make up the rest. It's like music in a way. You only get 8 whole notes and a smattering of half notes. It's amazing what can be done with the combinations. even "chopsticks" works in its own weird way.
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