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Old 12-06-2017, 11:37 AM
chris Harman chris Harman is offline
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Blower questions...

Hi all,

I have looked through search but nothing seems to come up for what I'm looking for... and the amount of information here is staggering.

Anyway I have 2 glory holes, both are pre-Katrina WetDog, one at 12" and one burner head; and one at 18" with 2 burner heads. All the burner heads look like Joppa 650s; they are painted black; but they are at least comparable to the Joppa 650 on the Big Dragon that just got the the shop. Both holes are running Eclipse mixers with manual butterfly valves right before where the blower would attach.

Using the Big Dragon blower as a starting point, it's a Dayton 1TDR6 from Grainger... Im thinking that could be the right size blower to use for the 12" hole since then interior of the furnace is comparable for the interior of the 12" hole. Now I'm kind of at a loss of how to go about finding a blower for the 18" hole since it's so much bigger than the 12".

Ovens are a bit simpler and a bit easier to figure out so any help here is greatly appreciated.

I'm still really new at the tech aspect of it all.

Thanks again,

Chris
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:40 PM
John Riepma John Riepma is online now
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Chris, I have a couple of surplus Ametek Rotron regen blowers that I used to run 2 glory holes on simultaneously, one 18" and one 12" hole. With plenty of air left over. One has an inverter duty motor and I have an AC drive available for that as well. Both are 1 HP 120/240v. I believe that both of these are rated at up to 27" wc, which is more than enough pressure to run anything. They are loud, as is anything that generates the volume that you will need at any pressure. I had mine mounted outside and piped the pressurized air into the building. I'm sure that others will chime in with their experiences but that's what worked for me, and they're both for sale.

Pete, I know that the sale aspect of this should be in Classifieds but my response is also about what I used in a similar situation. If the combination is inappropriate in this thread, please remove it.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:46 PM
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Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
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Nothing inappropriate here.

I think that in general, the greatest grief comes from underpowering the air in general. Better to have real overkill. You can always bleed off the excess air and you can put a gate valve in to control the volume you do need. The trouble with really oversizing the blower is two fold: first is cost and second is noise. Putting the blower outside works well especially if you're trying to scare away critters and neighbors. It keeps attorneys employed too. At the least, building an insulated box for the things works well but the intake is what's making all the noise and those AMTEK units know how to really howl.
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Old 12-06-2017, 03:20 PM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is offline
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I had a friend that was an electrical engineer, that said for a blower to haul air it used more energy than throttling it- in other words it wasn't a good idea to bleed it, it was better to choke it- was he correct?
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:00 PM
chris Harman chris Harman is offline
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That's much bigger than I was thinking, the Amatek. I like having everything on separate blowers simply from a redundancy standpoint. I have never liked the massive blower with a manifold system, could be because I've never seen one work well... ever. Usually it was underpowered blowers in too small of a noise reduction box and/or a badly built delivery system.

It's a small space, so I was thinking smaller cage blowers would be all right for the noise. There's always going to be some noise.

I'm trying to keep them as self contained units. That way if something goes wrong with a separate blower then I'm not completely down for the duration while getting it fixed.

Last edited by chris Harman; 12-06-2017 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:27 PM
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I would advise staying away from cage blowers. They may indeed be quieter but they simply can't develop water column that you really need. They never overcome piping resistance. Put your hand over the output, the motor never slows down. I think that the TD one you mention used to be the 4C006 from Graingers and its claim to fame was developing .25 WC and that indeed was enough to power a single burner from Dudley .
Those work, until you open the door up and then it goes to hell, particularly if you have a fiber glory hole which I continue to refuse to build since they do not retain mass heat. In a prolonged heat, you'll hate it.
And that's why I like the bigger beast. Theoretically you could have two input gas lines, one on a solenoid powered by a foot switch and excess air the same way. If you need the big burner, step on the switch. You can do reduction doing that as well.
If so, competing with John, I have two big graingers impeller blowers that do 10" WC. I don't care if I sell them or not so I have zip for any urgency. They too are loud, they just don't howl. I hate howling.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:05 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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Call me captain obvious here, but on your large hole, you can gang 2 of the blowers that you are using on the small hole in series and will increase water columboressure to what you need. Simple solution.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:57 PM
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I don't see it as obvious. Squirrel cages can't produce pressure.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:36 PM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
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Call up Cheyenne at Canned Heat and see if you can get a high pressure blower.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:52 PM
chris Harman chris Harman is offline
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The blowers would be directly mounted to the hole, so 18-24" from the blower to the burner. It would lose that much power in that short of a distance?

...and no fiber holes, I hate them as well.
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Old 12-07-2017, 07:45 AM
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If you have any 90's in the piping, they reduce your effective pressure by 50% each time. They are less expensive but not nearly as much as they used to be. In a straight shot, you're using a lot of sideways space and you should have some mixing of the air gas. Charlie Correll got me a german blower that cost $600 dollars for the recuperator. That seemed like an awful lot of money for a really noisy tool. It's the intake, it just sucks.
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Last edited by Pete VanderLaan; 12-07-2017 at 08:40 AM. Reason: spelling, it's always spelling..
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:31 AM
Victor Chiarizia Victor Chiarizia is offline
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i've got an older spencer turbine blower that needs to be rebuilt if anyone is interested. made in hartford, ct parts still available and one of the best combustion air blowers on the market. i'll dig it out for the right $$. very reasonable (cheap). vic
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:44 AM
Brian Wong Shui Brian Wong Shui is offline
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Call Eddie at Wet Dog and ask what sort of WC and CFM required to run the holes. The mixer is going to have some amount of pressure drop across the device and you are going to need sufficient WC and airspeed to keep the burner cool and combustion happening on the outside of the burner instead of inside the burner.

The blowers that others have mentioned are fine examples. Johnís blower with the VFD give you an additional dimension of control if you need it. In theory it would be somewhat simple to implement a PID controller and thermocouple and have turndown capability based on demand.

The dragon can get away with the squirrel cage because it uses a mixing T and probably has low air resistance in the system. Weíve used them and if there is too much pressure drop they fail miserably. In this case more WC is better as you can always reduce it but you canít increase it.

Ametek, Pyronics, eclipse, North American, Cincinnati all make good blowers.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:47 AM
chris Harman chris Harman is offline
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Just on the website alone it's 26" of WC max and 130 CFM for the current builds of their holes.

I'll see about contacting him today, I did contact them earlier but only got Matt and he was not wanting to talk about anything for their old holes than what they sell now... and to be honest I don't have that kind of money, but I might have to see if can scrape it up.

Last edited by chris Harman; 12-07-2017 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:59 AM
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Eric Truelson has moved up here and is in my studio. He used to build for Wetdog so I will ask him. He won't have internet until saturday but he does bring his laptop into the house while we consume adult beverages.

The easiest way to think about it is velocity. If you lack it, there will be burnback at the least and a cold glory hole as well if you use a big door at all. 26 inches of water column is serious overkill though. The two old dayton's I have do about 10 inches max and I've used pyronics blowers that did 6" and that was fine. Squirrel cages just won't do what you need. Too big will drive you out of the building.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:10 AM
chris Harman chris Harman is offline
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That makes more sense, at least to me, thanks.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:22 AM
chris Harman chris Harman is offline
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If anyone wanted a closer look at the equipment in question, this is the best I have at the moment...

and again, thanks everyone.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 12 inch GH copy.jpg (43.9 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg 18 inch GH copy.jpg (39.7 KB, 34 views)
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:41 AM
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Given the mixer on it, you definitely need a more powerful blower than you may think. Give consideration to how you would dampen the noise on it. That has a lot of elbows in it. If the blower was floor mounted you could cut the number in half.
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Old 12-07-2017, 07:11 PM
Andy Stenerson Andy Stenerson is offline
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I have a very old Maxon-500 floor mounted with a T and one elbow for each burner. Lots of excess air and not very loud. Although at parties I smile and nod more often now.
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Old 12-08-2017, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Stenerson View Post
I have a very old Maxon-500 floor mounted with a T and one elbow for each burner. Lots of excess air and not very loud. Although at parties I smile and nod more often now.
******
And I have two hearing aids without which I would hear very little at all. They have to be turned off in the studio to prevent further damage. Probably more from the roughers than the gloryhole.
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Old 12-08-2017, 09:53 AM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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You know.. you don't need to have a mixer on there. I run my 18" G-hole with a ball valve on the gas and a ball valve on the air. I rarely touch the air valve. If its reducing a little, i turn the air up or the gas down.

By removing the mixer, it would free you up to have 1 blower mounted on each burner tip.
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Old 12-08-2017, 09:58 AM
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I don't think it needs the mixer either. It just restricts flow and doesn't really contribute . It might be more applicable if you were trying to develop really long luminescent flames. You aren't.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:01 PM
chris Harman chris Harman is offline
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Sounds good as well, I'm all for keeping simple but effective.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:03 PM
chris Harman chris Harman is offline
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Is a mixer more of just a safety protocol? If they aren't necessary then why are they used so often? Regulation standards?
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:55 PM
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I see them used in long luminescent flames . Your gloryhole is brutish and short. I've used mixers twice and the first time was at Pilchuck when I was teaching forty five years back. All it did was to restrict the airflow and I could not discern any real advantage to it beyond looking nice. It was a pyronics unit Rob Adamson had me order. It's probably still there somewhere.

Try to get rid of as many 90's as you can. Introduce the gas around 18 inches from the burner.
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