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Old 08-06-2017, 01:43 PM
Ron Mynatt Ron Mynatt is online now
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Factors for calculating LEC English and Turner

I am looking to confirm the English and Turner Factors for calculating the LEC for my recipe.Since I have been told the lithium carb factor is too low I thought I should double check the other ones to make sure.I thought I got them from Glass Notes 3rd edition but I gave that copy away .I've called the Library at Corning but have not heard back from them.Does anyone have a source for them?
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Old 08-06-2017, 04:09 PM
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Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
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you did get them from glassnotes 3rd. Croucher established the corrected factor based in Appen which bears out in a physical measurement, which is how it was done in the first place. You'll find it in Glassnotes 4th.

What you won't find in the 4rh is the factors for metallic oxides. They're simply hopelessly totally wrong and are based in a completely different temperature range in a study done for the enamelling industry back around 1925. Paul Manners put those factors in an article he wrote for Glass Magazine called "custom made to Fit" in or around 1977. That was the first error. Then, Henry canonized it putting it into the 3rd edition.

I suggested that he remove it based on the evidence, and he did.

There simply are no factors for the colorants and never have been.
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Old 08-06-2017, 07:11 PM
Peter Bowles Peter Bowles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post

There simply are no factors for the colorants and never have been.
That would make a fascinating Masters project
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:31 AM
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The reason is simple. Industry simply does not laminate color to clear. They have no interest. Studio glass scarcely has any interest since 98% of studios use color rods. The economics aren't there and those of us who do make color pretty well already know what we can and can't get away with.

So, you're right it would make an interesting study
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Old 08-11-2017, 05:36 PM
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Didn't Brad Shute develope a spreadsheet just for this purpose?
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:08 PM
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he got his spreadsheet from me. The factor for lithium was what John Croucher worked up from Appen. I use it. The others are fine. There are none for metallic oxides.
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:52 PM
Ron Mynatt Ron Mynatt is online now
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I have a copy of Brad's and Dave B. spreadsheet and Ken Kubiak has corrected lithium to Pete's number.He has added spodumene,and strontium,Corning has gotten back with us so there is more info there.Overall Ken's spreadsheet seems a little easier to work with.
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:24 PM
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Normally, the colorants are simply not going to affect the expansion if they stay in ranges that hover around .10% as a max. There are indeed colors that can exceed that and it's a rare bird where you don't have to compensate with some alkaline flux but that won't usually exceed .10 percent either with a few notable exceptions. Go above 1% and you can see problems. You have to test. If Corning actually had legit co-efficients which were not the W&S numbers, I'd surprised and then pleased. I mentioned the lithium since it was such a significant difference. You really have to consider what it is you're trying to do. Making colored glass is one thing, making color rods is quite another. You can wind up making stuff that is only kinda sorta glass. The enamels can fall below 50 percent silica.

I get a fair idea about the general interest in this by looking in on the board dedicated to color. It's really marginal.
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Old 08-12-2017, 06:18 PM
Peter Bowles Peter Bowles is offline
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I'm missing something here - where is the board dedicated to colour?
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Old 08-12-2017, 06:26 PM
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Ah - Found it
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Old 08-14-2017, 04:10 PM
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My spreadsheet still has the lower number for lithium because changing it now would throw off all my past recipes. Did I forget to mention that in the instructions?

I'm sure the higher number is correct considering the source.
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Old 08-14-2017, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Bross View Post
My spreadsheet still has the lower number for lithium because changing it now would throw off all my past recipes. Did I forget to mention that in the instructions?

I'm sure the higher number is correct considering the source.
******
It simply would suggest that what you assume is not quite spot on regarding other ingredients. That being said, Those other ingredients can have a lot of water in them. No one has run a calc on H20 for some reason...
Bottom line? testing AND TESTING CAREFULLY . If it works for you, it may not work for someone else. At one point when Glassnotes 4 was coming together I mentioned "local conditions" and Henry did not like that. All I could say was " which feldspar, how humid is the place, it matters."

I had a client making rod for the 104 bunch and he was making Hagy Seals incorrectly, fusing the entire thing from top to bottom. He was selling it. I pointed out that a Hagy seal is made by fusing the top and the bottom only. That methodology was worthless. He simply stopped talking to me.

Anyone who claims to know it all is full of it and remember that. We all get humbled regularly. It's quite the medium. Physics intolerant.

The hardest part really is not being willing to put what you know, or at least believe out there. I look back at stuff I published 30 years back and I wouldn't put it in print now, but it moved the ball forward. When Henry asked me about doing Glassnotes 4 over I simply said that all my sources were gone and they did go. Trouble was that the new ones that appeared don't want to be published. I have to respect that. Gov regs changes. have my own sources but they're actually limited in volume. Giving it out cuts me off.

As long as people keep using nuggets, whatever the source, they're in for an upheaval every two years as to what happened in that industry. Right now, I'm not convinced at all that the move is Seattle is going well at all. Look to your supplies if you don't make your own.
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Old 08-20-2017, 05:42 PM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
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Yup, I've been cooking off or measuring then compensating for water percentage since the beginning.

Nothing like having something that can drastically change your chemical composition depending on the current humidity levels.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:04 PM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is online now
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Ive had a hell of a time just making nice clear glass for the last 30 years- why would you cause your self these problems?
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Old 08-22-2017, 04:48 PM
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I do it because of the basic challenge of making color that no one else can make. It has been my single best selling point for five decades. It's distinct. It's easily identifiable as mine. It's really a hoot when something incredible happens. I like dripping it on the floor. I get to go to China.

Try that with Kugler K215.
I believe in Carder. I believe in Nash and Neri and Croucher. I believe in the people who went before and I will honor them
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