CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk  

Go Back   CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk > Hot Glass > General Hot Glass Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #76  
Old 12-18-2019, 08:30 AM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 585
Shawn Everette is on a distinguished road
I'm curious to how many artists in general. One of the ultimate failings of art schools is that they don't teach them how to make any money, independently or as a career. Humanities degrees have been tricking students into near lifetime debt and minimum wage jobs for a couple generations now. Maybe something will give, but I'm guessing they're too busy printing degrees.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 12-18-2019, 10:21 AM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wakefield, RI
Posts: 4,696
Eben Horton is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Everette View Post
I'm curious to how many artists in general. One of the ultimate failings of art schools is that they don't teach them how to make any money, independently or as a career. Humanities degrees have been tricking students into near lifetime debt and minimum wage jobs for a couple generations now. Maybe something will give, but I'm guessing they're too busy printing degrees.
You should have gone to RIT. (School for American crafts). I was able to focus my glass education solely on developing my skills to be able to succeed in design/ making of marketable works in glass. But you said “art schools”. Rit was a craft school.
__________________
<eben epoiese>
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 12-18-2019, 10:45 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 21,925
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
well, making the jump into private glass stuudios was never the intent or focus of any of the programs in the sixties and seventies. Actually, once many schools found out how expensive those programs were, they simply shuttered them. Some didn't but only because the fuel bills were comingled with the entire campus. The ones that stayed hidden did alright in terms of surviving.

But placing graduates in design type positions failed everywhere the schools tried and it was a genuine concern. First, teach the teachers, then place the grads in factories, then collectors saved the day for some time for the best of them.
That's pretty much gone as a career choice in Art with a capital A. What remains is pretty much a reversion to craft which is what Dale was railing against. My niece is considered a major success at RISD having "Made it" and indeed she has. She designs lightweight bags, markets through the NY Gift show and they're mostly made in China. She needs one show a year and has seven employees in NYC and three in Oakland Ca. They're called BAGGU. It is not however what the young art student aspired to. They're the draw the pirate type from the match books.
Running a glass studio is like running an endless mile. The bills just keep hitting the mailbox, the shows keep shrinking, the willingness to make exciting work, diminishing. I find it to be very sad that we are where we are today.

And yes to tom's question. We can write a business plan, but today I wouldn't pursue it. When I stop, I won't sell the tooling. I'll mothball it and hope someone eventually is amazed at what they find.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 12-18-2019, 10:47 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 21,925
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eben Horton View Post
You should have gone to RIT. (School for American crafts). I was able to focus my glass education solely on developing my skills to be able to succeed in design/ making of marketable works in glass. But you said “art schools”. Rit was a craft school.
*****
I love the school mascot. A Screwdriver.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 12-18-2019, 11:48 AM
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Hygiene CO
Posts: 197
Paul Thompson is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
... not willing to be a craft fair bedouine ...
Very descriptive (and moderately depressing) term
__________________
"You don't have to be a very good glassblower when you can fix stuff" -- Richard Royal
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 12-18-2019, 11:58 AM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wakefield, RI
Posts: 4,696
Eben Horton is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
*****
I love the school mascot. A Screwdriver.
Not to be confused with the Amish school of technology - who’s symbol is a plow and a hammer
__________________
<eben epoiese>
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 12-18-2019, 12:20 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 585
Shawn Everette is on a distinguished road
Props to RIT and the handful of schools that may actually allow you to become a good craftsman and designer, the vast majority are lacking in such. My experience in glass in undergrad was formative, but overall university experience was lacking. A singular class teaching you how to get the most out of your taxes and write a prospectus would have been helpful. Grad gave me enough freedom to do what I want, but I had to learn to back it up with words, honest articulate ones. The savvy that came after was thanks to the school of hard knocks.

I can't imagine that the situation at "art schools" is going to get much better considering the adjunct problem, and I don't see a ton of them maneuvering to the craft agenda. Most of the examples I've seen of late are still pushing that the idea is more important than the execution, the antithesis of craft. Maybe they just need to start handing out bananas and duct tape, they come in all sorts of colors now.

Last edited by Shawn Everette; 12-18-2019 at 12:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 12-18-2019, 12:58 PM
Chris Lowry Chris Lowry is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 286
Chris Lowry is on a distinguished road
My quick response is that the difference between success and failure is not knowing that 1+1=2 but why 1+1=2.

School could teach us facts like how to build a furnace or how to make a mold but that doesn’t help when we don’t know what to make.

I feel like my experience at Alfred helped learn how to think, how to look beyond the obvious, and how to express an idea.

I don’t have huge artistic statements to make but I do think about why I do what I do and hope to make each piece better.

Hopefully luck will be on my side and I can continue to blow glass until I die.

On another note, Pete I want your grinding equipment, I understand it’s value.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 12-18-2019, 01:36 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 585
Shawn Everette is on a distinguished road
Instruction is subjective, as is art, but with some of the people I've encountered it seems like schools are teaching 2+2=banana-duck tape. Expression of ideas is great, execution is paramount.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 12-18-2019, 02:51 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 21,925
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
[quote=Eben Horton;146325]Not to be confused with the Amish school of technology - who’s symbol is a plow and a hammer[/QUOTE
********
I have a shirt that shows its a wheel.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 12-18-2019, 03:08 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 21,925
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Everette View Post
Props to RIT and the handful of schools that may actually allow you to become a good craftsman and designer, the vast majority are lacking in such. My experience in glass in undergrad was formative, but overall university experience was lacking. A singular class teaching you how to get the most out of your taxes and write a prospectus would have been helpful. Grad gave me enough freedom to do what I want, but I had to learn to back it up with words, honest articulate ones. The savvy that came after was thanks to the school of hard knocks.

I can't imagine that the situation at "art schools" is going to get much better considering the adjunct problem, and I don't see a ton of them maneuvering to the craft agenda. Most of the examples I've seen of late are still pushing that the idea is more important than the execution, the antithesis of craft. Maybe they just need to start handing out bananas and duct tape, they come in all sorts of colors now.
*****
The problems you cite have beeen around the entire time Shawn. This was in rennaissance in the '60's, a time when students all over the country were rejecting the values you refer to now.They hated the war, the jobs, the class definitions, the segregation. They didn't want tax classes. They wanted to pollwog around in the mud and to make things.

A fair number made it work. Neurot, Orient and Flume, Jim Lundberg, Correa, and they fluorished while a number of them had tie dyed shirts and were the truck drivers of the art world. It really took way more glass people than the market could support to begin the culling process. It was really only Dale who wanted the big time. But the grand sorting out? We're there.

We've always had bananas and duct tape. Back then it was Andy Warhol and the monotype press. Faster than oils.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 12-18-2019, 03:24 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 585
Shawn Everette is on a distinguished road
Now back then were the students being taught to reject the values, or was this something that being wrought internally? Cause I was under the impression that it was the latter, and now these are/were the people teaching this mindset. At least in a craft environment you can start to separate the wheat from the chaff, some places don't care as long as you can pay the tuition.

I always hated Duchamp until I realized the point he was trying to make. Even Warhol I'd give a grain of thought to, but some things are either a front for money laundering or done to prove how dumb rich people are.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 12-18-2019, 04:00 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 21,925
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
I suspect teaching art is a crap shoot. What I always loved were the visual images of others work. The schools pushed you to have your portfolio together and that was viewed as a big deal. At RISD, Students were taught to draw their projects.

I spent decades polishing Schott to precision levels. At one point an article showed up with this Dutch snot who the article said "Liked to amuse himself gluing random pieces of the material together.

Actually, art is hard work. You can go in the studio in the morning, come out at night and have nothing. There was this guy in New York doing not dissimilar stuff, . Terrible stuff, selling well.

I look back and harbor no regrets. I've mainly been criticized for being too direct in what I think. maybe, but I won't stop. Do remember that I didn't go to art school.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 12-18-2019, 04:25 PM
Greg Vriethoff's Avatar
Greg Vriethoff Greg Vriethoff is offline
Triggered
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aarde
Posts: 2,218
Greg Vriethoff is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
...Andy Warhol and the monotype press. Faster than oils.
Not monotype. Silkscreen.

Monotypes are not reproducible, hence the name.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 12-18-2019, 04:36 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 21,925
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Don't get lost in the weeds. Warhol did a lot of monotype with ink changes every run. If he screened I'm simply not aware but I'm no expert. What I do know is he wanted the paint to dry really fast.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 12-18-2019, 05:19 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 585
Shawn Everette is on a distinguished road
Teaching art can be a pain, but a really cathartic one when it goes well. Craft aside, it's difficult to direct student to making the objects they really want, rather than the ones you want them to make.

Portfolios were always pushed, but I can't say I know anyone that got anything through a cold ask, even with a fantastic one. Images rarely do dimensional work justice.

One of the things that I think stunts a lot of glass students is that they don't really think about what they are making until they're on the bench. They have an idea, then forget what they're doing half way through. I make a practice of doing some form of drafting before fully engaging a project, many never make it to the shop. There's always time for experimentation, after you've made what planned on making.

I hope that I speak for all of us when I ask that you never stop being direct.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 12-18-2019, 06:13 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 21,925
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
I think a really good question to ask any art student is : So, why did you decide to use glass in the piece presented here? There's lots of materials. Why Glass?
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 12-18-2019, 07:40 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 585
Shawn Everette is on a distinguished road
Always, ask that one, always. Just don't believe most of the garbage that comes out of established artists.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 12-19-2019, 07:48 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 21,925
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
I've probably said it before but my dad once said "Glass is a chalice for light."

That has stayed with me.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 12-19-2019, 11:12 AM
Sky Campbell's Avatar
Sky Campbell Sky Campbell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Gainesville FL
Posts: 1,004
Sky Campbell is on a distinguished road
Leon Applebaum is not only a talented artist he’s also a great guy. I encourage anyone who’s interested in heavily carved and polished work to check him out. He has inspired and helped a lot of people I know. He is humble kind and dedicated to our medium. His work is part of Corning’s permanent collection and he deserves much respect.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 12-19-2019, 11:43 AM
Art Freas Art Freas is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Washington
Posts: 624
Art Freas is on a distinguished road
I am baffled by a lot of the "Art World" these days. Went to the Venice Biennale this past May. A lot of it would be better ascribed to a lack of meds than artistic merit.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 12-19-2019, 12:59 PM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: hills of Tennessee
Posts: 1,443
Tom Fuhrman is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Freas View Post
I am baffled by a lot of the "Art World" these days. Went to the Venice Biennale this past May. A lot of it would be better ascribed to a lack of meds than artistic merit.
I would blame a lot of what we see today on the "art critics" and lack of understanding of good art criticism. Most are journalists that took art inn graduate work or vice versa.
Attend the national conferences for ncollege art educators and you will walk away, shaking your head.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 12-19-2019, 01:07 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 21,925
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
you will remain baffled, trust me. Mary Beth used to suggest that artists were like a group trying to cross a river and everyone held hands. If one fell, they all did.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 12-25-2019, 07:07 AM
Rollin Karg Rollin Karg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Kechi, KS
Posts: 924
Rollin Karg is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eben Horton View Post
I keep attempting to reply to this thread but stop myself as I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings.

My thoughts are that there are a bunch of studios out there that are valuable enough to sell as a business. They are too busy making glass and money to spend time on craftweb.
Amen Eben, well said !
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:59 AM.


All published comments within these message boards are the opinions of its contributor and does not represent
the opinion(s) of the owner(s) of this website. Please see the Terms of Use file for more details.

Books to Help Artists Avoid Online Scams: Top 10 Email Scams | Social Media Scams

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© CraftWEB.com. Opportunity Network. 2008. All Rights Reserved.