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Old 01-02-2012, 07:20 PM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
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Oil Burning

I was poking around looking for something entirely different when I stumbled onto this.

This is the cleanest looking waste oil/veggie oil burner conversion I've seen yet. I thought I would toss it up here for those who were looking into this.

http://ckburners.com/index.html
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:18 AM
Rosanna Gusler Rosanna Gusler is offline
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love the disclaimer. rosanna
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:54 PM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
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Yeah, tell it like it is...
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:53 PM
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Hey, if it won't bring the dead back to life, screw it.
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:18 PM
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Repurposing a boiler burner is one way to go, but they are not made for our application. Glenn Randle is the best example of this and he used it for motor oil.

One reason for my reservations on this is that the burner tubes are metal and made for furnaces working at hot air or hot water temperatures, and periodic cycling, rather than 24/7 at 2100. Of course a ceramic tube could be made.

I really feel that the first way to go is to use the least amount of fuel you can by going to recuperation. Then if you want to look at fuel alternatives, go for it. I would not want to be filtering or storing oil for 15 gallons a day use. For 5 to 6 gallons a day it is not an impractical challenge. That is about the change I get for recuperation.

The biggest challenge with veg oil is filtering, even if it delivered filtered. This stuff spoils, coagulates, etc. It is also getting harder to get the oil I need as the interest in biofuels for electric generation ramps up. What's next??
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:30 PM
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Soylent Green
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
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Soylent Green
It used to be in short supply but today you can buy it easily on the internet.

http://buysoylentgreen.com/
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:24 AM
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Soylent Green
Soylent Green is STILL made of people!!!
Attached Images
File Type: gif soylent-green.gif (36.0 KB, 15 views)
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Old 01-07-2012, 09:21 PM
Greg Frankhouser Greg Frankhouser is offline
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Hey folks, I know we are all focused on Teeny Tiny Holes as the way to express the fuel.

Couldn't the fuel be expressed in a spray, much like your garden hose? Yep it would still clog, but hopefully less often.

Impure fuels cause probs, the also offer opportunities for the Cheap/efficient.

If the spray is large enough, it shouldn't clog often. Also one could make a Gross Filter, to avoid the minor clogs.
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:03 PM
Dennis Hetland Dennis Hetland is offline
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Why don't you use a fuel transfer filter.


I built an oil burner out of pieces of pipe and stuff laying around my backyard. I haven't had time to build a furnace for it, but I have test fired it on a 55gallon drum with a wood fire in it. I drilled an 1 1/2 " hole in the side about mid way up. and placed the burner in front of it. I wrapped the fuel line about 7/8 the way around the barrel to preheat the oil.
I don't know how everyone else delivers oil to their burners. I thought you just pumped it straight to the burner.
What I did this time was pump the oil in a loop back to the tank and put a T in after the pump and put a needle valve with a gauge in between the T and the burner. That way I could deliver only 1-3 psi to the burner and I can adjust it.
All the info I used to build that burner is located somewhere on this forum.
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:05 PM
Dennis Hetland Dennis Hetland is offline
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and I used unfiltered oil
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:22 AM
Dennis Hetland Dennis Hetland is offline
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?????????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Frankhouser View Post
Most of us here, we want to make more Glass, for more folks, forever.

Please share.
Share what? Information. I did that. It didn't make me very popular and nobody wanted to read it.You're not suppose to tell people how to actually use oil. You're suppose to tell them it's a pain in the ass and they shouldn't try.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:11 AM
Dennis Hetland Dennis Hetland is offline
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I think smartest thing to do is build a very small furnace and work up to bigger ones, but the flame on my test fire was way too big for a small furnace. If I adjusted it down too far it would dribble. I think I can get the right size flame by reducing the size of the burner orifice and adjusting the air and oil.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:19 AM
Dennis Hetland Dennis Hetland is offline
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and from my observations of the wood barrel test the necessity of a mixing chamber with recuperated air piped into it seemed obvious. All the things Hugh Jenkins said made total sense once I started messing around with it.
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Old 01-09-2012, 06:23 AM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
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Here's that old thread. I love the stuff from the guy in Africa.

http://talk.craftweb.com/showthread.php?t=84018
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Old 01-09-2012, 06:24 AM
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Here's that old thread. I love the stuff from the guy in Africa.

http://talk.craftweb.com/showthread.php?t=8401
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:13 AM
Hugh Jenkins Hugh Jenkins is offline
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Dennis, Where are you going with this: "Share what? Information. I did that. It didn't make me very popular and nobody wanted to read it.You're not suppose to tell people how to actually use oil. You're suppose to tell them it's a pain in the ass and they shouldn't try."

I have never withheld information that I thought was really right. I have suggested that if anyone really wants to work with oil they should visit a shop that already does. I would say the same for anyone trying electric, or well gas, or landfill gas or anything off the norm. There are things that have to be seen and experienced. I would not have wanted anyone to just think that veg oil was the cats meow right off the bat.

I too used unfiltered oil for some early experiments and the seeming success for about a month is what led me down the path I'm on. But, when I shut down and started back up all kinds of problems showed up. I have been clear about that and possibly saved some problems out there for someone.

I think that drip burners, various kinds of sprayers, etc, will work to get some great heat. But, as the electric users have found, it is reliability, melting efficiency, maintenance, etc, that have had to be solved to have a really useable system.

It has taken a lot of time, some serious problems and disappointments, tanks of marginal glass, etc, to arrive at a really workable system using not always reliable fuel. An example of the unexpected is what happens to cooking oil right after Thanksgiving now that so many turkeys are deep fried. That turkey fat really changes the filtration and caused deposits in the burner. Heating the oil solves some problems and causes some others.

Greg, the orifice size issue brings back things that apply to gas as well. Large orifices mean low pressure delivery. Low pressure means more spatter not a real atomizing. When I first tried to make a burner for an 80# furnace I could not turn it down enough to get a good burn and control the heat. The furnace was too small for the smallest nozzle I could use. I actually had to go to a larger furnace with a larger fire box volume to get things to run right. Who would have known that without trying it? You can start too small with this.

I gross filter everything. Then I fine filter it as it goes to the shop tank and "insurance filter" as it goes to the burner supply. As I have said before, if you can't sleep at night, you don't have a working system. But also, if you can't go out for several hours, or take a day off, or not spend huge amounts of time on fuel management, it cuts into your glass working or just the ability to have a life. I have had every one of those conflicts. My wife was ready to quit at times over it. I still think of improvements and try to implement them. All of my transfers are now with pumps and all pumps have timers to eliminate human error.

Ironically, now my main issue is competition for the oil with utility companies wanting it for electric generation. I could not possibly get enough (150 gal/mo) without paying a collecting company to deliver it.

I think a lot of people wanted to hear what anyone would say about oil that made it seem easy, inexpensive and hip. It would not have been very honest to paint that picture, at least not for a continuous running shop over the long haul. I doubt I would still be able to operate where I do, had I not made the effort. I don't think I can work hard enough any more to run long term on gas.

If I ever made oil seem esoteric, it was not intended. But, as my wife will tell you, if you mess with this stuff, you will get it on you. And any clothes you wash in the same machine will also smell like it. I guess that qualifies as making it sound like a pain in the ass you shouldn't try.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:15 AM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
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Well said...as always.

There it is folks, the bottom line from actual experience...brought to you by one of the nicest, most competent and most patient people in the biz.

I think one of Hugh's last comments is very important as to the future of all this. There will be huge competition for the waste oil sooner rather than later.

If we really do go Road Warrior/third world in the end it's probably wood for for me for a pain-in the-ass-high-maintenance-up-all-night-to-keep-it-hot heating system.

It does grow on trees after all.....
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:28 AM
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Hugh,

Some folks need to learn things the hard way....

IMO, Carpooling is a great way to save fuel, but nobody likes to share the ride. Sharing the studio would probably be a good way to economize since the furnace runs 24/7, but most of us don't like the idea of sharing "our" shops.

Paper mache is looking better all the time! http://www.gourmetpapermache.com/
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:36 AM
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I recently read an article in the Detroit paper about the fact that waste cooking oil is in such demand that there are regular thefts of the stuff since it commands a higher price these days.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hilty View Post
I recently read an article in the Detroit paper about the fact that waste cooking oil is in such demand that there are regular thefts of the stuff since it commands a higher price these days.
We've had a few similar incidents here in Seattle as well. I'm waiting for the late-night TV ads: "Just pour your waste oil into the post-paid envelope we provide, drop it in the mail, and we'll send you a check."
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Old 01-10-2012, 05:08 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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a friend of mine worked in a studio in Zimbabwe that ran its furnace off of used motor oil. The oil was kept in an elevated tank that had a copper line come down and drip oil into an opening that can be described as a burner port. it was an opening that had a hard brick that was red hot extending from the combustion chamber. There was compressed air that would force the flame of the burning oil into to furnace.. it was run by a huge tire tube and a bicycle pump. Someone had to pump up the tube every 15 minutes if I remember right.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:10 PM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
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Love it! ingenuity at its finest.

I saw a large homemade hydrogen generator that had stacks of truck tire tubes with a weight on top for gas storage.

That's going back a while.....almost all truck tires are tubeless now.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:36 AM
Dennis Hetland Dennis Hetland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Jenkins View Post
Dennis, Where are you going with this: "Share what? Information. I did that. It didn't make me very popular and nobody wanted to read it.You're not suppose to tell people how to actually use oil. You're suppose to tell them it's a pain in the ass and they shouldn't try."

I have never withheld information that I thought was really right. I have suggested that if anyone really wants to work with oil they should visit a shop that already does. I would say the same for anyone trying electric, or well gas, or landfill gas or anything off the norm. There are things that have to be seen and experienced. I would not have wanted anyone to just think that veg oil was the cats meow right off the bat.

I too used unfiltered oil for some early experiments and the seeming success for about a month is what led me down the path I'm on. But, when I shut down and started back up all kinds of problems showed up. I have been clear about that and possibly saved some problems out there for someone.

I think that drip burners, various kinds of sprayers, etc, will work to get some great heat. But, as the electric users have found, it is reliability, melting efficiency, maintenance, etc, that have had to be solved to have a really useable system.

It has taken a lot of time, some serious problems and disappointments, tanks of marginal glass, etc, to arrive at a really workable system using not always reliable fuel. An example of the unexpected is what happens to cooking oil right after Thanksgiving now that so many turkeys are deep fried. That turkey fat really changes the filtration and caused deposits in the burner. Heating the oil solves some problems and causes some others.

Greg, the orifice size issue brings back things that apply to gas as well. Large orifices mean low pressure delivery. Low pressure means more spatter not a real atomizing. When I first tried to make a burner for an 80# furnace I could not turn it down enough to get a good burn and control the heat. The furnace was too small for the smallest nozzle I could use. I actually had to go to a larger furnace with a larger fire box volume to get things to run right. Who would have known that without trying it? You can start too small with this.

I gross filter everything. Then I fine filter it as it goes to the shop tank and "insurance filter" as it goes to the burner supply. As I have said before, if you can't sleep at night, you don't have a working system. But also, if you can't go out for several hours, or take a day off, or not spend huge amounts of time on fuel management, it cuts into your glass working or just the ability to have a life. I have had every one of those conflicts. My wife was ready to quit at times over it. I still think of improvements and try to implement them. All of my transfers are now with pumps and all pumps have timers to eliminate human error.

Ironically, now my main issue is competition for the oil with utility companies wanting it for electric generation. I could not possibly get enough (150 gal/mo) without paying a collecting company to deliver it.

I think a lot of people wanted to hear what anyone would say about oil that made it seem easy, inexpensive and hip. It would not have been very honest to paint that picture, at least not for a continuous running shop over the long haul. I doubt I would still be able to operate where I do, had I not made the effort. I don't think I can work hard enough any more to run long term on gas.

If I ever made oil seem esoteric, it was not intended. But, as my wife will tell you, if you mess with this stuff, you will get it on you. And any clothes you wash in the same machine will also smell like it. I guess that qualifies as making it sound like a pain in the ass you shouldn't try.

After I posted the emails from Mikko the questions I asked started to get ignored. I've had people who have read that thread tell me they thought I was pissing people off. I felt like nobody wanted to hear about any of the information I tried to share. After that thread I figured I wouldn't ask about oil on craftweb any more. It seemed to be an awkward thing to talk about here.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:01 AM
Dennis Hetland Dennis Hetland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Randle View Post
Hugh,



IMO, Carpooling is a great way to save fuel, but nobody likes to share the ride. Sharing the studio would probably be a good way to economize since the furnace runs 24/7, but most of us don't like the idea of sharing "our" shops.
I want to share my shop. I just signed the lease today to rent the house next to me. So now I have another 200amp service I can use to run more equipment. Plus there's another shop I get to use. I can set up more/different equipment there.
This house/shop won't cost me any money if I can keep the three bedrooms over there rented. So far I've only rented one room to some guy that's the project manager at the largest HVAC contracting company in town. He's from the Seattle area and says he's worked on studio equipment before.
He's already kicked down with an old burner system a(non glass) customer was throwing out. I don't know if it'll be something I can use for glass or not, but I think with this guy's help I might actually be able to get the 500lb crucible furnace I have sitting on a cement pad in between the houses working on oil.
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